Hello and welcome to Hatch our Hatchery Life. Today's guest is Jose Leal, and he's going to talk about his author of, of the Radical Company's book. And today he's gonna talk about the thriving of life and how, how can life save us more extension. So the first question in my mind is, what does that mean, the thriving of life? Why don't you introduce yourself and then tell us about that.
Yeah. So I'm Jose Lial. I was I'm an immigrant from Portugal. Lived my life most of my life here in the United States and in Canada. And have been an entrepreneur since I was 16 years old. Starting a number of businesses and, and working in both in, you know, my own shops and, and for corporations. And you know, as of late, over the last seven or eight years, I've been figuring out how do we rethink work? And that's when I met you. So that's when my life changed. You changed my life, Matt
<Laugh>. Well, thank you very much. <Laugh>. So, so what does that mean? The thriving of life? And, and how can life save, save us from extension? So
It's a bit of a paradox because somehow we think of ourselves as not life, don't. We? We, we think that our conscious minds, our logical minds are intellect is different than life itself. And so we're thinking about humanity and we don't think about the fact that the cell that's in me a few million years ago, a few billion years ago, was in something else and has since divided. So we're life. Whether we know it or not, we're life. And that life that's in us is the same life that makes us feel what we feel. Mm. Our feelings are life itself. Yes. You know, when we see a dog, you know, just completely excited about seeing their owner come back, jumping up and down, going crazy because, you know, the human that they love is, is walking back in into the room. That's, that's a huge relative relationship to, to us and other animals, right? Not every other animal has emotions or feelings but we see it in our pets. That's life. It's the life in us that feels the way it does. So how do we get back to letting that life actually save us from extinction?
And how, how do you think that will happen?
Well, I I think that what we've done over the last couple hundred years is we've decided that our intellect is actually smarter than life. And we've decided that we're going to create systems that impose on people, that force people to obey the systems. And, and work is one of those systems. And our governments are another one of those systems. And traditionally religions have been those systems. And we, we basically say, oh, somebody had an idea. The idea is more important than life. Yeah. But I'm in pain. Don't worry about pain. That's okay. Don't worry. We're just gonna take care of the idea because the idea is more important. And that happens every day. And I think that's, we are killing life by not letting life do what life does. We're forcing people to work in organizations when they feel like they need to be doing something more important, either within that organization or within their communities, or within their families. And so I think that if we're going to actually stop this race to the precipice we're going to be able to do it with by reconnecting with a life that's in us.
You know, I just recently wrote a blood post and it, it was about that, it was about the, the serpent is us, you know, the, the, the serpent that the Christian Bible makes a judgment on it's a bad thing when he, to get rid of the serpent and everything in the serpent has to brings to the table. And, and so he, the thing that serpent convinces eve to convince Adam to buy the apple and and that them does, you know, and that's bad death in is, is us. That's the basis of warm relations with one another. So I, I quite sympathize with with the feeling that the individual and the feelings is very central to, to survival and all that. So are we talking about thriving life in the sense of making more money? Or what, what, what, what would that look like?
Well, I think before we say what it would look like, I think we need to understand what it looks like today. Because what it looks like today is, is, as you pointed out in the last episode we are, we're set up to go to work for a system, a bunch of ideas where we work really hard for another idea called money. And then we, you know, try to make the market numbers yet another idea. And at the end of the day, we come home feeling drained, disconnected, stressed, anxious, and that's life telling us what you're doing isn't working for me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right? And so, so that's the world that we live in now. And I think to get to a world where we allow that part of us, not that part of us allow us, we are life to be front and center. We need to change organizations to allow for that to be a, a critical part, our own lives, to be a critical part about how we guide our behavior, the things we do, how we do them, why we do them, has to be a combination, a balance of intellect and feeling life itself and our knowledge together working in, in, in combination.
Not one or the other. Right? It's gotta be both. And so I think what that looks like is all of us working together in a collaborative way where we recognize that that balance is there and helping each other maintain that balance. That's the game. The game isn't a game of working with different systems and trying to figure out what the best ideology is. And then, okay, everybody follow this ideology. It's, it's balancing life. And, you know, nature has given us this beautiful thing, which is the ability to intellectualize and rationalize and use logic, but it doesn't own life. Life owns it. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and life very much tells us when things aren't going good, we feel pretty raw about what, what, how, how things are. And so how do we build organizations where life is at the center, at the root of what the organization is, rather than either sidelined as most organizations are today, or completely ignored
By the way you said the root. And that is a radical. The, and the way that we use radical is about going back to the root, to that root, that balance and all that. But how is that going to, assuming that you believe that what we're doing is, is heading us straight into the edge how will that help us? I mean, so people will be happier and they'll have warm relationships and all that stuff, but they'll be doing the same things, right? They, they'll be burning oil and, and taking stuff out of the earth and blowing it up in the air. And, and all those things that usually work against our are very live. So how will that, well, every, how will the one fixed the other,
Everything that happens on earth from the standpoint of human beings is done by human energy. Every single thing, like the oil doesn't come up by itself. The cars don't get built by themselves. They don't get designed by themselves and everything else. So for us to recognize that once people have the freedom, the autonomy to actually recognize the life within them, they will have the option to do the things that are better for their community, better for their families, better for them. I don't think most people, the vast majority of people want to be harming nature. They don't want to be driving bad cars. They don't want to be living and working for organizations that are destroying the climate. But they are forced to by our systems. We've created systems that impose, well, I've gotta pay for the rent, I've gotta pay for the mortgage, I've gotta pay for the, this and the that.
So how do we give people the ability to not crave, to be a boss so that they can impose their force on somebody else, but actually crave to have this cocreative, co-owned, co-managed relationship in an organization that allows them to benefit sufficiently from that organization not to do the things that they don't want to do. There has to be that balance between what I need for myself as a human being and what I can do for my fellow human beings and the earth itself. Because if we don't strike that balance, we're going to act from our feelings, not from my intellect when it comes to reactions. Mm-Hmm.
<Affirmative>. So what I, what I usually get when I talk about things like this, what you should get at this point is the or you're being idealistic are you, are you getting rid of money? You know, all kinds of extreme things. And so how would you address that? How, how, how would you have people provide for themselves, make a living right? With this ideal thing called money and and still be co and all that stuff? That's, can you, can you
Yeah. I think there's a, I think there's a transition period and, and like you've said before, none of us really know how this is gonna work out, right? But it's, it's obvious that what we're doing doesn't work. It's also obvious that our, as, as humanity continues down this path, we're getting sicker, more disconnected, more disengaged. It's not, we're not going in the right direction here. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And the only way that we can find a place where we can work together towards a common goal for ourselves, not a common goal of an ideology, right? But a common goal for me and for you together, that role of of doing it can only come from us. Cuz if it's some imposed by someone else, we're back at it again. Right? We're back at somebody else telling us what to do. And so it's in, in very practical terms, to answer your question, when we talk about the idea of being able to survive, we're surviving within the context of a system where I have no control.
So right away I have to somebody, I have to beg somebody for a job. And that job, I have to beg them to pay me enough to pay for my mortgage, and I have to beg for, you know, it's, it's this constant, I'm always on my heels. And we've built a society this way because we didn't know how else to motivate people. And so we built a system where they are resources and we have to incent them. And, and those things are, are what we use as levers to control the populace. What we didn't understand is that people aren't machines that whose levers we need to pull. People are human beings who have life in them. And that, that life is what's giving us the feelings we are. And it knows very clearly when things aren't going well, and it makes us feel like. And so figuring out how to not feel like in our relationships is figuring out how to have life thrive.
If we can figure out how we can communicate, how we can work together, and we can solve the problems that we have to solve every day, then we are being guided by life. As long as it feels like we're going in the right direction, we're going in the right direction. And all of the processes and the systems and the practices around that need to be guided by that balance. It's not all about feelings, but it's also not all about ideology or concepts that we stick on the board and say, let's go there. And then we're like, oh, yeah, but that doesn't feel right. Doesn't matter. That's where we're going. And, and so how do we, how do we balance those two off?
So what about money? The whole, our whole culture I guess runs is run by money. You know, I want more, I have to dominate people to get more and show, like I'm, I'm dumbing, I'm the alpha thing. And so so what do you do about that? I mean, if you take money away does not mean that people will sit around, do nothing, and oh, your response for that.
Well, money doesn't disappear right away. It'll be replaced by something I suspect something other than what we see money to be. Because money right now is a fiat instrument. It's, it's imposed by somebody. Here's the value. And it's like all of a sudden I could buy a bunch of bananas with a dollar. Now I can't, what happened? Oh, well somebody decided that it wasn't worth what it's supposed to be. And it has nothing to do with what the, the thing is, it's somebody or some group of people I've decided the value of, of that thing. It's not about money being good or bad. Money's a tool. And right now we have no better tool for exchanging value between ourselves, but exchanging value between ourselves doesn't mean that that's what our worth is. We're not worth money. We're worth a lot more, and you can't buy people. And that's what we're doing. So there's a difference between money for the purposes of exchanging value. I will kindly give you a dollar for a bunch of bananas, but don't give me a dollar and steal my life away.
Hmm. That's interesting. So, so what are, what are are you doing about it? What is our hatchery about and, and the book? I mean, what are you doing about it generally?
Well, so, you know, we, we started thinking about what a radical company could look like. So we wrote a book about that and, and we started thinking about, well, it, it all starts at the root. It all has to go back to, to the root of, of, of humanity, which is life. And that that root understanding that we have a radical purpose within us, and that that radical purpose manifests itself in us through our feelings. That we need to sort of figure out how, how does, how do I recognize that in myself and how do we get from there to a radical company? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how do I get from A to B? Because we can't create organizations knowing that we can't create organizations that are hierarchical in structure. So radical companies is, is an understanding that an organization can both be co-owned and co-managed.
And that leads us to, excuse me, that leads us to understanding that there is a progression away from the traditional organization towards what we call a radical company, which is an organization where people break bread together, where they work as a team, as a collaborative and can do the things that are done today for practical purposes. But there's a whole lot of waste when what we are doing is forcing people to work. And so we could be more productive, we could be more efficient, and we could be a lot happier and we could have a lot less waste. Not just waste of human life, but waste of all of our products and services that we produce that are, that are forced upon us by brainwashing through advertising and marketing. That the intent isn't to help our lives be better, but to sell more product. So we need to change our mindset and we can't change the mindset at the consumer when I can't change my mindset at the production.
If I don't know how to run a business better, I can't see that it's possible to be a consumer that sees the world differently. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So our hatchery is a, a a way to help organizations that are seeking to change the way that they are and move them towards something like this. And our hatchery live is about engaging in conversation as we are today with people who are not happy with the status quo within their organizational world that we know and not happy not doing something about it. People that are ready to act in, in that. And so how can we have these conversations that go to the root, not how do we do this little practice and how do we do that little practice? And wouldn't it be nice if we could have a nice little meeting in these things? And those are all nice things, but how do we get to the root of this? How do we get to the, so to the, to understanding that it's really only life that's gonna get out of this. It's not gonna be our intellect by itself. So how do we get back to that organizations that are grounded in life and act from there? So I, if people watching this today can, are interested in having that conversation, we'd love to have that conversation with them.
And, and as the conversation there'll be, we'll do some other things together or what
Join the radical community where we, you and I have essentially devoted whatever's left of our lives to figuring out how to make this happen. So come talk to us. It doesn't cost anything to talk to us. It doesn't cost anything to join us on our, our hatchery meetings every week. It doesn't cost anything to figure out whether you want to make a difference or if you just happy with the status quo. And, and from there we can explore, you can explore what paths you can take. Again, we don't dictate, right? We are not sitting here trying to drum up business as, as consultants. No offense to consultants, just that's not what we're doing.
Yeah, that's, that's what I wanted to clarify. We're, we're not selling anything. We're, we're, we're listening to everybody and different concerns because we're not smart enough, but we ne we will never be smart enough. There's not such such a thing as smart enough. Right. you said, you said one thing that really struck me. You said we wouldn't be generating as much waste in this companies that are driven by human needs as opposed to money or some other external thing. And I really believe that the, the waste that we express as, you know, curtains and piles of crap and stuff like that, it's a reflection of our own waste. Exactly. So as you reduce one, you're gonna going to reduce the other. Plus the rest of us have to live in that waste. And and we don't want to <laugh> nobody, nobody wants to live in waste, right? But we do because we make up, make up all kinds of explanations. And there's nothing to do with the fact that I cleaned up a a broom today,
Full of waste. And and as I was going through it, I'm thinking this meant something to somebody as a product, as a thing. It doesn't mean anything to me. It doesn't mean anything to me. And that's what, that's what I define as move forward. So is is our hatchery and our hatchery live and radical and other stuff only for, you know, basically small companies or, or can big CORs do it? Or is there incision thing or do you have to be, or is there a binary thing, zero or one? How will it work?
I personally like to think of it as a lens. It has nothing to do with the side of the organization. It has to do with how you can see the world. If you can see the world through the lens of life, you will change the way you think about what a company is. And it doesn't matter the size. How long does it take to transition a, a large corporation to versus transitioning a small organization or a startup? Well, that's obviously very different, right? You can't turn around a Titanic, right? Very quickly and maybe never at all, like totally, but, but you can change the way some parts of organizations work and you can change the, the lens with which you see life. Because if you can see the difference between who you're not working with employees, you're not working with headcount, you're not working with resources, you're working with life, the very same life that is hurting to drive in in the morning for two hours, having to go into having to go into work when their family's sick, when their neighborhood is full of people that are drug a addicted and homeless. These are the people that's the life that are working for you,
Not resources. And once you see that for what it is, I don't think you can run an organization long term the way that we run them today.
Yeah. I was talking to a woman here and where I'm at now and I told her about this other project that we have going on, where we're, we want to take people on probation and offering, you know, another way of doing things. And it is going from a vicious circle to a virtual circle. And she said, where are they going to live?
And I almost, I almost fell off my chair <laugh> because we hadn't thought about that. Obviously we, you know, we'll live in, in relatively nice houses and nice neighborhoods and all that stuff. I hadn't thought about the fact that these guys may living places where people go, oh, let's, let's go do this thing tonight. Let's, you don't have to do the the virtual thing tonight. You can skip it for a couple of days. And and that, that is very important. Where people live and what they bring to work and stuff like that is, is extremely important. And we made it, we made it a religion out of, out of my professional life, my non-professional life in separating the two. And you see a lot of people on LinkedIn saying I know that this network is not for that, but I had a baby or whatever, my mother died or what have you. And, and this is part of it. So yes, I I quite, quite agree as it would. But but yeah, that's the kind of thing that we, that we'd like to. We have a few, we have like one minute left. So would you like to summarize or say goodbye or, yeah,
I, I'd I'd like to, to to basically say this, which is, I don't think that what we need to do is change how we work for the sake of work. I think we need to change how we work for the sake of life. That's, that's the end of the game here. That's the root of, of all of our issues. And I think, you know, we're working on work. I think there are people working on governance and government and you know, markets and financial systems and all of that stuff. All of this needs to start being about life and not about whatever it is that we're, we think it is. Cuz all of those things are, make believe all of those things are things we've created and now we believe they're more important than life itself.
Well, I, I I viewers go visit our hatchery live. We, we'll have this interview and, and the previous interview and everything that follows, everything will be there. And if you want to ask any questions or anything, that's, that's one way to resist as well. So or if you're, if you think you have a lot to say and you're doing a lot in this direction, cetera, et cetera we'd like to hear from you and we'd like to engage with you and, and have this kind of conversation to see how we put this whole thing together so we don't go over the edge. So thank you very much Jose. And, and thank you very much. Every, everybody, anybody seeing this and sign off.