Welcome to the winning league, a show dedicated to dissecting business and leadership excellence. We take a deep dive into various aspects of business and operational excellence, current events and personal and leadership development topics. The guests on the podcast will be credible industry leaders and practitioners offering a portfolio of techniques and methods for positive growth.
Welcome to the winning link. I have an exciting guest for you today. Mr. Norbert Majerus. Norbert is a renowned author of two books. Uh, he also goes all over the world to speak at conferences and workshops around innovation. Right. I call him mystery innovation himself. Uh, he speaks at the shingle Institute, uh, which considers a Nobel prize of operational excellence. The association of manufacturing excellence. He goes globally, uh, helping companies, uh, tap into their innovative, uh, talents to and ideas. So, but, but I further ado. I'll let Mr. Norbert introduce himself and tell you a little about himself. Well, welcome Norbert.
Well, thank you, Billy. And, uh, thanks for my new title. I will, uh, I will try to, uh, keep using and I will quote you for it. <laugh> I? Yeah, I actually worked at Goodyear. That's where I met Billy. I worked there for 39 years and I spent my whole career in innovation and, um, I have more, I have 60 patents just counting us patents. So I did do my share of innovation, but then I also got exposed to lean, uh, later in my career. And, um, uh, we, um, uh, together with my team at Goodyear, we came up with something, uh, very unique. We found that, uh, uh, you apply lean thinking to innovation. You may actually get more out of it than if you apply it to, uh, uh, to, to manufacturing because you get multi, you get a multiplier out of it and, uh, you can, um, you can really, uh, uh, also use it as the road to apply it, uh, in, in your whole corporation.
And the more parts of your corporation are part of that initiative to hire the gains from it. So, uh, Goodyear, let me, uh, publish, uh, the results at that time. And, um, in my first book, uh, lean driven innovation. And then, um, after I retired, I, um, kept working with clients and, and so, and there were also so many other stories that, uh, I hadn't, that had made it in the first book. So, uh, I had more than enough and, uh, decided to write a business novel now, which is all stories. And, um, try to let the user come up with what do these stories, tell me, and how can I use those in my work and in my company.
So your new book, this is it winning innovation. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's a novel. Give me a little background about the book and the content.
Yeah, well, um, I had to, uh, I, I wanted to, uh, get a few things across, uh, first of all, um, the, uh, the, uh, uh, an, um, innovation for me, uh, should be, uh, driven by, uh, by R and D by the people who know the technology and, but it should be embraced, uh, by the whole company. And, um, uh, so it, uh, the other, uh, uh, big idea is, uh, it's a, it's a culture change just like, uh, lean, and it's not a culture change that gets in conflict with any lean transformation that you do. It's a culture change that adds a lot of synergy. And, um, the, um, uh, and I also, um, wanted to get the ideas across that. Um, if you do a lean transformation, uh, I was always of the opinion. You just transferred the processes and everything else falls in place, but I was barely wrong.
Um, the, the cultural part is often more difficult than the posters or the technical part. And, um, I learned that that, uh, if you do the two together, okay, you are, uh, the results are better and much faster mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I think you lo lose an opportunity if you just focus on processes and then try to bring the people along. Um, doing the two at the same time is really the, the way to do it and all those ideas and many more, um, come out in a story. And it's an, um, uh, it's the come, uh, I placed it in, um, in, uh, in Europe, in the Northern part of Italy, a beautiful place, uh, just as, uh, well known for food and wine and for than for bike racing, of course. And, uh, and I picked a bicycle company because I'm a big, uh, cyclist, and I know that industry quite well, so there was a natural, and it was very colorful.
And also, um, I wanted to bring the idea of the winning in there. Um, it's um, uh, and, uh, in, in, in this book, the, the company that I'm talking about is very good in winning. They win bicycle races, they have a racing team and they win bicycle races, but they don't win the business. And, uh, they used to be really good in the business. They're very competent. They make the best bike in the world, but their revenue is coming down. And, uh, they see the writing on the wall that they have to innovate in order to, uh, to, to, to win both on the road and in the
Business that that's, that's kinda like most companies though in their journey to, to innovate right, to stay with the market. And one of the things that I noticed, you know, being a leader, uh, in my fortune 500 career, as well as working with other companies now earning the right to change. And you said around the cultural piece, most companies in their innovative processes, they do have the processes and the tools. So they go out and they say, here's what we're gonna do. But what they don't do is the cultural, right. The inclusive, right. To get people, to feel that this is what we need. And we're a part of it because that's where we as humans, we don't reject change. We reject change being forced up on us. And, and just think about number when you and I are working, uh, in north America, right?
You throw a new idea over the fence. Billy developed this new idea, and I threw all, I threw it back over the fence. It was like a civil war of product development. And I would say to Arbor, Hey, listen, listen, I have to hit the number, rounding black and out the back, man. That's all I, I want. And so with Abert, we actually built our relationship over some of these examples, and we were out on some events and we got to know each other, uh, and become really close because a lot of times actually norberd acts as my agent. I think sometimes cuz people try to, uh, connect with me through Naber. But what that is is that's a cultural shift even beyond that. So how important is that nor on people's journey to get everybody at the table.
Yeah. That is kind of, um, uh, a very big challenge. It was a very big challenge as Goodyear, as you, as you, uh, may remember the, um, uh, we, we used to, and I, that's how I was educated at that time. Uh, don't worry about, um, uh, if anybody can sell the product or if anybody can make it, you just design it and then it becomes their problem. And that's a very expensive way to design the innovation because you design it many, many, many times you design it every time somebody, uh, figures out something that doesn't work. And, um, uh, also, uh, so if you, if you really wanna be successful at that, you get to get, um, before you even, uh, while you still work on the idea, you get everybody engaged and get their input and, uh, you will have a, uh, a product that is much better and you get them much faster because you don't have all these, uh, these three work loops.
But I also, uh, remember the times Billy, when, uh, whenever innovation we did, uh, interfered with manufacturing and, um, uh, you know, very well, uh, all these new products, uh, they take time away. They take, uh, production time, capacity away, and a lot of, uh, that's why at Goodyear, we built our own, um, innovation center. That's where we made all our prototypes and, um, that we found out was not the way to do it. And actually, I, I still remember coming to Fayetteville the first time when I met you, I was on the team when we decided to let the plan build all the prototypes that engaged the plan from the very beginning, of course they say, oh yeah, don't we get more? No, you get less headaches. Yes. You help us develop it. So we get your input when we design it, we have all degrees of freedom that's. So if we notice something that has to be done differently, um, it can be done at that time. I, um, heard from a, a major company, they, um, uh, still do a major effort to separate everything. And at Goodyear, we made this effort to integrate everything absolutely. From, uh,
It was a collective gate process, a collect, you know, what quality was at the table, right? Finance was at the table. Sales was at the and marketing. And here's why that was important. Yeah, I recall, right. We, we went from LVA low value added products to high value added products. So we were, we were changing how we were gonna, uh, go to market and, and customer wanted our product, but we were releasing problem, the, the product, like you said, that was developed in sort of an incubator. And, and so that product, when it got to me may have ran 10 to 20, 30% waste and the, the quality person and when they were in the room and, and I had to, to say, who's gonna eat that 40% right now, they had buy in to go in and help me. And there was a collective team effort, and I believe that helped drive profitability for that company, because I remember back when we were a negative EBIDA company in the journey to over a billion dollars, EBIDA it was driven by innovative products.
Yep. And, and not only, you know, we, we did a lot of, uh, good things at the same time. Uh, Billy, we also implemented, uh, project management organization. Absolutely. We, uh, we developed that collaboration and so on and so on. So I believe that all has to happen for innovation. Absolutely. It's not just having more great ideas. Uh, if you, you need to really, uh, get these ideas, uh, through your system and, uh, they are not good ideas unless you make good money on them. And, uh, that's something that I'm glad that we figured out. And that is a story that, uh, that I developed, uh, in this book really from an idea, uh, all the way, uh, through, um, uh, a successful, uh, successful product in the market. And I think that's what it's all about to engage really everybody in that process and, uh, that synergy engaging everybody, that's really, uh, how you make a successful product. And that's how you win absolutely. In the, with innovation. Well,
And that's continuous improvement. When you look at companies, innovation, tap tapped into that, that, that whole talent base, uh, some of the best ideas come from the lower rank people in the organization. Right. And so one of the things that I believe successful companies do on our innovative journeys, our contingent proven journeys is, do change with the people, not to the people. And so when you bring them in and they're, they're inclusive, that's when you really start to get traction, that's when you start to, to, to see the impact in the marketplace. Right.
Well, let, um, place, right. Well, uh, I'm glad you brought that up. Let me give you an example of, uh, of a gentleman that I knew he built experimental tires for me, and he built them, like you said, round and plug and out to back 12 of an hour or 12 of them a shift that's what's in my, uh, that's what is the union contract? And that was it. And, uh, after the, uh, the, the plan, uh, had gone through a transformation actually, uh, won the DME excellence award, uh, at the end, they, um, the people changed mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, it struck me. I went through that plan 20 years after I worked with those people and I did a tour and there's the same gentleman. His name was built by the way. And he shows us how he builds a tie now. And I thought, oh, I hope that he doesn't show us how he built them when, when he built them for me.
And it was totally changed. He explained to the group how he owns the machine. Yes. He's responsible for it. And, uh, before he couldn't care less, now his goal was to make the best possible tire that he possibly could make. Yes. And, um, and, and he was so proud. He was actually, he put his name on the tire. Yes. And I said, but why did you do that? And he said, well, I wanna see if this tire wins the next, uh, the NASCAR race next weekend. And, and it, it absolutely blew my mind. And I'm, I'm saying now, man, if I could have gone to build when, when we struggled to get an approval at, uh, I D know, uh, manufacture and, uh, bill had, and I could ask him, Hey, um, uh, how can I do this better? Do you have any idea how can make this a little bit more title or this and that? I'm sure he would've loved to help me. Absolutely. But it just wasn't in the books at that time.
No, but you know, you mentioned Ville, uh, I have a book coming out called the winning link and it talks about how to build an inclusive culture, how to get your ideas from your people. Uh, you know, I, I, I, I actually have had to experience to have to build relationships, uh, with the steel workers. And, and I thought it's a great opportunity, but my greatest story is around a union vice president. And we're walking became one of my greatest contributors and innovators, but day one, he didn't own anything. And he felt that we were doing it to them. It was all adversarial. Right. And like you say, if he would've been invited to the table, his, his most powerful statement to me, when I asked him, he says, of course I love to help, but no one ever asked me. And, you know, one thing that we were on a tour, and I said to him, I says, approximately how many people work here? And he looked at me and he goes, you want me to be honest? I, yeah. He says about half of them. I said, about half of them. I thought he was gonna say 3000, 400 people. He says, they're not working because you're not including them.
Absolutely. And, uh, a, a story that I tell in my book on that subject is, um, this, uh, the owner of this, uh, bicycle company, he, um, uh, he he's in a conversation with, uh, the, the leader of the transformation. And, uh, she is, uh, trying to convince him, uh, I mean, they talk about innovation, how the, the company becomes more innovative. And he says, well, we, we, uh, we, we can't win in innovation. He said, because we don't have any innovators. And then she says, well, how many people work here? <laugh> yeah. And they said, well, we have 300 people here on the site. She said, well, then you have 300 innovators. Right. And then she says, but you also have a, a manufacturing plant with another 300. So here you have 600 innovators. And I said, well, I never looked at it that way. Can you help me make this work? And she said, yes, that's why I'm here. Absolutely. That's what the inclusion means. And at the end, of course, as the story develops, uh, those people get engaged, they have ideas. And in fact, the manufacturing, uh, vice president, uh, uh, comes, uh, in a meeting one day, he said, we always in manufacturing, we thought innovation was the privilege of R and D. He said, and now, finally, my guys, the people in my plant are so happy because now they can also contribute. Right.
That's right. So now what, what happens to companies that fail to innovate that don't embrace the need to innovate? You know, we we've heard of the, the, uh, Kodaks. Yeah. We've heard of the blockbuster video company that were thriving at one point, but right. The, the, the, the, the, the, the market need changed or the market desire change, and they didn't move with it. Yeah.
Well, I actually, uh, was fortunate. I met, uh, I worked actually with the gentleman who was on the team that developed the first digital camera for Kodak. Okay. He was working at Kodak in R and D and he showed me a picture of the prototype and, uh, and how the picture was actually displayed on an analog TV at that time. And Kodak had all that technology. So why did they not jump on it? And they had it in 1975, that was 10 years before the next digital camera came out, by the way, that was so many, by the way. And, uh, but the, the story is very simple. Kodak made so much money on film. They, the only concern was how can we kill this thing? Yeah. Because this thing will kill our film. That was, and many companies went that route. Unfortunately, I could give you another three or four examples, right.
On top of my head, um, exactly the same story. And that is something that, uh, a big obstacle in the culture that companies have to overcome. And, uh, also, um, companies make these tiny little improvements and, uh, continuous improvement. And, uh, a lot of these improvements are in cost. And, um, yes, uh, it is a lot, I, my experience, it's a lot easier to win if you bring out new products. Yes. Uh, it, you get a jump in price. When you bring out a new product, people pay more money for innovation. Yes. And if you wanna grow your market share, you can do it by making a, a better product. For example, yes. You still have to do the best quality you can. Yes. You can do it by making a cheaper product. You have to do that. You have to manufacture your product as efficiency as efficiently as you can. But when you are done with those two <laugh>, you have to come up with something new. Yes. And then you make something new at that same quality level at that same efficiency. And now you are starting to win in innovation and many, uh, successful business. People went on record saying it's probably the cheapest way to do it. If you just, uh, promote the innovation and have a good system to, to drive the innovation, a good culture to drive the innovation in your company.
So, so when I look at that is the book available now?
Yeah. The book book has been printed it's out on Amazon, it's out through the, through the publish, uh, Rutledge Taylor, Francis, um, affiliated in this case, uh, yeah, just, um, just type my name or type the book title on Google and you will find it.
Okay. So what what's going on with Naor in the future? Any speaking engagements workshops?
Um, yeah, I, um, of course, um, uh, COVID put a big D in, uh, into my business. I try to do, uh, try to do consulting. I'm still, uh, doing, um, consulting, but I prefer the teaching, uh, to be quite honest, I'd rather teach the people, the principles, the principles, um, uh, of the process, but also the principles of the transformation, uh, change management, uh, the behaviors, the, uh, the principles that change your culture. Yes. And then maybe coach them along the way. I'd rather do that than go into a company and say, now do this, now do that. That never worked for me. Um, I'd rather engage them. Uh, they come up with the ideas and, uh, I may, um, then look at, 'em say, yeah, this sounds good. And maybe we could rethink a little bit here and there, and then it's their idea.
They go do it, they have the background. Now they know what they are doing. They have been taught. And, um, maybe with a little bit of coaching, sometimes those transformations are much more successful in my mind. That's something I'd like to do. That's something I promote in my books. Right. I should, I should be doing that. So I, I like to teach, um, uh, do, do keynotes and so on. Yeah. That's always a good way, but if I, if I don't teach anything in that keynote, I have not done my job. That's uh, that's my, and I don't think I changed my mind so quickly on that.
So how do people get in contact with you Nara?
Well, uh, as I said, my name is very unique if you know my name and if you type my name on Google, you will find me. Okay. Um, and, um, uh, I, uh, uh, maybe in your podcast, you're very welcome to publish my phone number. My,
Uh, yeah. Email LinkedIn.
Yeah. I'm on LinkedIn. You find me on LinkedIn without a problem. And, um, my, uh, my, my, my first name.my last name@gmail.com to make it easy. And I, uh, I will answer everybody who contacts me and if, uh, I help a lot of people by the way. And I don't, um, I don't, uh, need to charge money for it. If somebody wants to ask me questions, I'd be happy to answer them. And, um,
You heard that NA bird offered some pro bono advice as well, and Nara, and I would actually be doing a workshop at the AME conference in October. And so, um, stay tuned for that and, and, and, and stay tuned to, to the LinkedIn, uh, uh, to LinkedIn to see what's going on in Aber. And Naber, you are a winning link. And so, uh, I look forward to more podcasts and I wanna thank everybody for joining the winning link. And as my favorite saying goes, remember, if you make people visible, they will make you valuable with that being said, Naber thank you for being on the winning link and stay tuned. Talk to you later. Bye-bye thank you for listening to the winning link. Please go to our website for links to everything that was mentioned in today's episode, please subscribe to the winning link to be notified of our latest news events and updates. We welcome you to the link team.