Welcome to the AI ops evolution podcast. This series features visionary it leaders who are paving the way for the next evolution of the it industry. Discover the truth about where we are in the adoption of artificial intelligence for it operations and actionable tips that you can implement to become a more effective it change agent. In this episode, we are joined by Brian Kramer. Brian is a renowned social business strategist, global keynote speaker, executive coach and bestselling author. He's one of the world's foremost leaders in the art and science of sharing and has been credited with instigating the hashtag H two H human business movement. Brian's first book, there is no B2B or B2C. It's human to human Rose to the number one top selling spot in business books on Amazon in its first week. His latest book share ology. How sharing is powering the human economy, maybe USA today's top 150 Booklist the week of its release, as well as number one on Amazon in four categories, including business and planning, a founding leader in the human business movement. Brian speaks all over the world on how businesses can empower the people side of success equation. Now let's join your host, Sean McDermott, a mission driven serial entrepreneur, it engineer and AI ops visionary for this exciting discussion.
Our listeners of our podcast are really it executives that are deploying technology focused around artificial intelligence and machine learning. Uh, so I have really two questions for you. One is in reading about too, what is the human business movement? So I'd like you to talk a little bit about that because I think our audience is going to find that really interesting. And the other is what does it mean to kind of redefined humans in this machine learning age? And I'm very interested in what your topics are or your thoughts on that. So re redefining, um, the first one, say it again, the first one was so, um, first of all, is what is the human business movement? Cause I see that you're a founder of the human business movement. So that's really interesting to me. So I'm interested just to kind of get an understanding of what that's all about.
So that, that goes back to the whole, uh, philosophy that came out about how, um, about, uh, that there's no B2B or B to C business to business or business consumer it's HH human-to-human when it first came out. It was, uh, really at the advent of social media when, um, it was when it made, uh, every customer, um, available to a conversation in conversation with every company. So it flattened the playing field. Um, there wasn't anybody within a company that couldn't have a conversation outside of, um, outside of their business with their directly, with their customer, which was forever changed. Um, and that was the massive change that happened when social media happened to companies. Now, things have changed
Five years later where it's been redefined as, um, or is being redefined on its own as a, um, as, as the advent of, uh, artificial intelligence, machine learning, virtual reality, augmented reality, uh, automation in general is starting to create, uh, this new wave of what, what does it mean for humans as technology progresses and how do you continue to humanize, um, backwards, um, uh, automation really in general. Um, and so, you know, it's kind of like going back in time in the marketing field where, um, everyone was, um, was trying to figure out how do you, how do you, how do you stand out? Um, and now you can stand out at scale, but now that there's so much noise going on that now it's, it's actually to our benefit to be more human, to stand out, um, because there's so much automation. So it's, uh, it's a matter of automation, like you said before, it's, it's, it's, it's artificial intelligence or it's technology and humans working together, uh, to do this, but at the end of the day, how does a human actually stand out and being more human is our, um, is our competitive advantage.
So, um, being human is our competitive advantage, which has never been that way up until now. So it's kind of interesting.
So it's interesting. Um, what do you think that humans bring to the equation that differentiate us from machines or the future of machines? Right. And we don't really know exactly what the future is yet, but, um, I think there's a lot of people out there who think that machines are gonna replace human thinking, right. And we're going to end up like, you know, on Wally, right? All like just lazy sitting on lounge chairs, floating around. Um, what, what do you think the human characteristic now that's going to be the most prominent coming out of all this,
The, the most prominent human characteristic. That's a great question. Um, there are, uh, there, well, so I think that it's emotion. Um, I think emotion is the thing that separates us as humans and machines. That's not to say that the machine can't emanate, um, emotion, or at least try to, but, um, but how we react or how we respond is, is, is much different. Um, we have a uniqueness in what touches us, um, and we are all so different and, and we could both be looking at, you know, a painting and both see different things and have a different emotional reaction to it. Um, how we evoke emotion is wildly different in, um, in, in what we do every day in our personal lives and in business. And, um, you know, there's, there are six core emotions. And, um, yet again, I'll, I'll, I'll say that this can be somewhat replicated.
Um, it's not, um, it, uh, what, what AI can't do is it can't evoke memories and it can't evoke, um, a memory to an emotion to a, um, to, to, to how we're feeling in the moment that creates this desire to want to reconnect with ourselves or our past selves. Um, that's just one example of a deep emotion that we might have. Um, for instance, when I was on a, uh, a Disney ride, this is years ago with my children and it was the cars ride. And we, at the very end of the cars ride in the California adventure side, it, um, takes this big dip and, and then it goes straight down kind of like the log ride. And, um, and then they, of course, they take a picture at your worst moment ever in your life. And, and then you go down through your off, you know, the finish the ride, go down through the store where everything costs $9,000, because of course that's what Disney does and they put you through the store first, and then they show you the picture of your faces in, in the worst way.
And my daughter's face while she's a wonderfully beautiful girl. She, her hair had completely taken over her face to the point where she looked like Jesus, like her hair was going underneath her and formed a perfect beard. It was massively like amazingly magical, the way that it perfectly did this thing. And so I took a picture of it and I posted it on mine and everyone commented, you know, on Facebook and everyone commented and they're laughing and we're like, Oh my gosh, but I don't bring that up just because, you know, it's funny. But also it was funny to me and it was unique to me that it was my daughter who had this really cool picture that turned her into Jesus that made her, made it funny. And then I could share this out. And that's something that I don't think. Um, and we're a long ways off, long, long, long ways off from AI ever seeing that emotion, that humor the joke in, in the midst of all of this, um, it's too deep and emotion too, uh, or too deep into too much of a memory now to me to even call it up to tell you about it.
So, um, so that would, that would be the one thing that I would say that, um, humanizes us.
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I'm feeling that this conversation around emotional intelligence is really increasing, I would say, in the last year or two, right? And we're doing some, we're doing some surveys around emotional intelligence in the workplace. Do you think that the rise of the conversation around emotional intelligence is proportional to the rise of machine learning and AI and the conversations that, that, that we, as humans are saying, look, um, we, we need to become more in touch with our feelings. We need to be more comfortable with our feelings. We need to understand and be empathetic to other people because some subconsciously we know that AI is coming and it's going to take over something. So this is our connection to people. I don't think we're that smart. And, uh, I, I think that, um, it's certainly going to serve a purpose. I think we're, that's too soon to say that AI is scaring enough, us enough, that we now are trying to have more emotional intelligence site.
I don't know if I go that far, but, um, uh, what I would say is that we are cocooning ourselves enough into desiring more emotional intelligence that we have technology more and more around us. Um, so technology is the core challenge. Yes. Um, is it AI? I don't know about that, but technology for sure. Um, in 19, 1984, uh, faith popcorn wrote a book called the popcorn report. Um, brilliant book, uh, talking about the future. She's a futurist. And, um, I got to meet her a couple of years ago. She's like privately, like my, one of my heroes. And she, um, she, in the popcorn report, she talks about how we're in 1984, how we're going to cocoon ourselves into a place where technology will bring everything to us and we won't have to go outside, or we won't have to go do podcasts in person with people, but we can do them over zoom or over other, uh, other technology.
We, we, we can reach out on that's crazy, isn't that crazy. And we can, we can reach out on email to people and we text message and we order our groceries to be delivered to us. And, um, and places like whole foods that didn't even exist yet with one day, bring us an Amazon would bring us everything we need and we won't have to go to the store. And so, um, here we are, uh, 20 ish years later, uh, or more than that, 30 years later, and we are every bit of cocooning. Um, and so I think that the, that that's, what's, that's, what's, um, we're becoming less, we're becoming distanced from each other because of technology as people. And we need, um, we need more, um, more consciousness if we want to stay in community and, and, and be with each other.
Yeah. I mean, I definitely feel that, right. I I'm the father of three, uh, um, teenage and young adult daughters, right. Who have grown up in this era of cell phones and social media, and, um, it's consuming to them, you know, and it's constant. And, uh, sometimes I wonder, you know, are they losing connections with, with, with, um, with each other that we had as kids, you know, growing up and, um, you know, I think they have to figure it out. And, but I, I do believe that we, as humans, we are, you know, we are a tribal species, right? We are a, a, um, we're, we're a species that we, we need to be connected to others. And, uh, technology is kind of interesting and allows you to have longer distance connections. Um, but at the same time, it can also allow, uh, it could also make short distances sort distance, relationships become technical and not in person.
And I think that when you're in person, you have just a greater connection to people, and then you create memories, like what you said, you create memories together. And again, and yet I think that's, you know, as I get older, you know, I, I realized that experience and memories are really what it's all about. Right. It's, it's we do. I, I do what I do in order to create experience. Right. And experience of whether it's, you know, you know, working in a company, growing company or experience with my kids, I literally just got back two days ago from Disney with three days with my 18 year old. Um, that's what it's all about, right. It's about, you know, standing in line, you know, and making jokes, you know? Um, and that's what, that's what makes us human, you know, and I, I, I have a hard time seeing AI doing that, you know, but, you know, I also didn't predict, you know, you know, a phone in my pocket that could power, you know, three human brains, but we'll see.
Um, so back to kind of like the it leaders, um, how do you think it, like, what are, what are some of the things that it leaders should be thinking about regarding machine learning, AI and, and how to, to not lose as kind of human to human connection. And, um, and the other part of that is how do you start looking at resistance strategies where people are resisting this technology, even though they know it's coming, like, like as human to human is spending and concentrating on human to human connection, the really the, the solution to resistance of new technologies coming in that will, that people believe will have a negative impact on it.
Yeah. Oh man, that's such a great question. And, um, it'll be interesting to see how the, that, that plays out. I have my, um, my ideas on it, which is, um, based upon just our core way of being right now, there, there are three main interactions that are happening right now. There's there's HH, which is human, human there's HTM, which is H uh, human to machine, which is something we all do probably all the time where we just walk up and we put our debit card in our, in an ATM machine and grab money without talking to somebody. Um, that kind of stuff happens all the time, you know, go online, purchase something, never talked to somebody. Um, and then there's machine the machine, which is new. Um, not a lot of it, but more of it will come. And as an it person, I'm sure you, you see this more than I do, which is machine to machine, is machines talking to other machines and performing automated tasks, um, or, and then eventually they may actually come up with they're, hopefully not, but they may come up with some rule sets themselves, hopefully not their own language, uh, like Facebook did.
And, um, we'll be all screwed at that point. But, um, so that, um, uh, I kid of course, and so I think, I think that based upon those three, three main core interactions, um, w w w we have to always be thinking about what is the customer going through? Um, what is it that they desire the most? Um, what are they losing by us putting these technologies in place? Um, we're, we're not asking these questions, we're just putting them in place and then we're, and then they may, or may not like it, for instance, um, uh, there's, there's this great chat that took place on Amazon that I absolutely love. It was with a customer representative. Um, and this guy that came on and he'd started a chat and Amazon, and he said, um, the customer says on chat. It says, tracking shows the delivered, but not, not received.
I never got my, my, um, product. And the Amazon representative said, warming, warmest, greetings. My name is Thor. Have you heard about this? No, no. And he says, my name is Thor and, and the guy goes, Whoa. Now here's the thing. Um, he, what he's asking for the guy looked up his record and saw exactly the product he's talking about. He's talking about this book about the holla from Thor that he never got in the mail. And so the, the guy took it upon himself. The customer service guy took it upon himself to, to talk in this way. And he said, greeting store, can I be Odin? And the Amazon guy says, Odin father, how are doing on this here? Fine day. And the customer said, thorn, my son agony rises upon my life. I have not heard about this is awesome. And then Amazon says, this is outrageous, who dares to find the old father Odin, what has occurred to cause this agony?
And then finally the customer said, I'm afraid to book. I ordered to defeat. Our enemies has been misplaced. How can we keep the Hala intact without our sacred book? And it goes on and on, and they play this thing out and he gets his book 24 hours later and all, and all is done. But, um, I just, I just don't see that kind of like that kind of surprise and delight and spontaneousness, and being in the moment, dancing in the moment and doing what we do as humans, um, as, as something that's, that's, that's possible. And, and that kind of interaction is missing a lot more than me actually. Like let's focus on that. Um, if you wanna, if you wanna build more customer loyalty, build in more human touch points like that, use technology to give you more engagement. Um, technology should bring us closer to engagement, not farther away. That's my whole point. And so if we can use AI or machine learning to spot human touch points, where we can have more of these kinds of engagement engagements, we're going to be winning. But if we use it to have less than that's where we're going wrong,
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One of the things that, uh, we work on and we work on with our customers is the journey, right? And it's, it's
Not hard to map the journey. What's hard is getting people to figure out how to create engagement, touch points in that journey that are really unique and surprising. And one of the things that I do with my customer. So every time we do a customer survey, no matter what, uh, I call the customer, right. If it's a bad survey, but we don't get too many of those, but, um, and it's all automated, right? So the whole thing happens. They get an email saying, Hey, thanks for your score, blah, blah, blah. We have different templates set up, but all it does is in the end, you've got all this automation, it shows up on my calendar. It's a, it's an ability for me as the CEO to engage with our customer, just talk to them on the phone and ask them about their experience. And I did it so I could start understanding a better way of engaging with our customers so that we can start looking at this journey as they work.
And we surprise people. What I didn't realize that I've gotten feedback going. I've never gotten call from the CEO of one of my vendors before. So that alone was an engaging touch point that I didn't intend. So, but the whole thing is automated. And I think that you you've really hit on something of, if you use technology in a way to change. And, and like you said, the light customer, um, then we're using technology for the right things. Right. And I think that, um, that's a lesson that I think I, you know, it leaders can take into their organization because a lot of times it leaders, it is, um, focus internally. Right. And, uh, it's a lot easier to focus on your consumer right. And experience with that. But as an it leader, we sometimes lose that. Right. We sometimes lose that, Oh, well, they're, these are internal employees.
We don't really need to surprise them. I like them. But, uh, we should, right. That's a great point of how to do that. And, you know, and how to, um, how to use this technology to really enhance the experience when someone calls up and they say, Hey, uh, I have, you know, an issue with my password or something like that. You can, you can use that as an experience, a way of creating a new experience for them. Yeah. And I've worked and I've worked in enough big companies where I've been completely underwhelmed by the internal IP experience, you know? Um, so, um, one of the biggest challenge, so now I'd like to kind of shift into like practical right. Of, of this. Um, one of the things that we focus on a lot, uh, and I would say one of the biggest issues with six success of it initiatives inside of a large organization is their ability to, um, manage change and manage resistance.
So, uh, you spend a lot of money, you know, millions dollars on new software applications, and it's gonna, it's gonna, it's going to streamline processes and all kinds of ROI type discussions and things like that. But it has this downstream effect on people. And not only on the people who use the old system and they're trying to figure out, Hey, am I going to lose my job? But you know, the people who use the old processes has been doing this processes for years, you know, and they don't like change. And, you know, we don't like change. Right. Um, how, how can people use this kind of human human, what techniques do you think it leaders could use in order to help in the change process? Cause I, I guess we see this and says, one of the biggest fail points of it is that, and we call it operationalizing a project that the project gets deployed, but it never fully gets operationalized with people that adopt it. Uh, and a lot of assists around change. You know, they, they don't want to use the new system. They want to use the old system because they know that. And, and how, how, how can we use, how can we address human to human engagement, um, to help mitigate change and mitigate resistance to change? Hmm,
Well, so resistance to change is typically because we've, we have fear of something replacing or doing something that we're going to be, um, uh, that takes the place of something that we're doing. And, um, and so, you know, first of all, we have to paint a vision, a better vision if that's the case, um, there's, you know, we're not doing a good enough job showing how this can help, not hurt and how it's not going to replace. It's going to enhance, um, whether the skill sets that we also need to build ourselves. Um, I'm, I'm also not going to paint a rosy picture and say that, um, that you are safe in your role and you shouldn't be learning anything. You'll be just fine to going the way you're going. Like everyone needs to be learning new skill sets because I mean, look at just what happened in the last 10 or 20 years with the advent of the internet.
And we all, it brought about a whole new, uh, invention of, of jobs and, and eliminated some, and this is going to happen over and over again, everything's cyclical. And so learning new skill sets is important. Um, uh, change is going to happen and it's going to happen with, or without you. So, um, so this is something that I think really, um, you know, will, will happen to people and they're going to be forced to change whether it's now or in the future digital transformation that's happening. Um, it's not going to happen overnight, but it's going to happen. And so, um, so there's that the, the second thing is that people, uh, have, have, um, a challenge with momentum. Um, momentum is with the hardest things to create in any company, um, larger, small, harder, harder as a large company than a small company. That's why smaller companies, I think are more nimble because they create momentum faster.
Um, and why big companies should be hiring smaller companies because they can actually get them through things faster. Um, so I'm a big small business, uh, um, go small business. But, um, at, at the end of the day, momentum happens when you start with small things and create from there. Um, so instead of taking on the world and saying, how can we create this massive customer journey that's going to solve all of our problems, let's start with something small let's, let's, uh, let's pick a small milestone, that's doable and get, get a team together to try something out and let's learn from each other. And most importantly, let's see how we work together to get this new thing done. So instead of taking on the world of, of massive change, let's first learn how to be a team on something new in the digital transformation space or any kind of transformation.
And then when, once, once we know that that works and we have felt this momentum, we know what's possible, what is impossible, what we need to add, what skill sets we're missing, all that good stuff. Are we using agile? Do we need it? Um, what's the, what are all the important ingredients that goes into now taking this and then duplicating it throughout the organization or, or enhancing it so that we can bring more of this to our organization. So instead of, I guess my point is instead of, um, you know, boiling the entire pot, uh, warm it up as you go and, and, and see if you can get everybody to just make small increments of change. Um, there are, uh, and, and this is a new fascination of mine. There are small, the more that we go with, the more busy we're getting in, the more scared we're getting, the more work we're having to do, uh, to think about everything that's coming. And I, and my whole thing is just take a step back and let's just make little wa one degree shifts of change in organizations. Cause the one degree shift is still a hundred. It can make 180 degrees of difference. Um, and if we can just, just really inflict that kind of small change, I think we'll be much better off and will be less, less shiny penny and more, more focused on what we need to do.
Yeah. I, I think there's, there's a lot of wisdom in that and we're, we're talking about, you know, I've been, I've been focused on that in a lot of areas, both in company and my personal life of just this whole idea of compounding. Right. And, um, making small changes and, and 'cause, um, big changes are scary. Right. And I mean, everyone, you know, and I know I'm guilty of this. I like to, I like to build a big vision and plan, but the execution you've really got to do it in small pieces. Right. And I think that, um, that's where a lot of people fail. Right. And, uh, they fail in their personal lives. They fail in initiatives because it's a human trait, right. I want to lose 40 and you know, it got six months go by and they haven't lost anything. It's like, well, how about you just focus on losing a pound a week?
And it's nice to have that goalpost out there, but in the end, you know, when you lose 10 pounds, you're going to see a difference and it's going to create that momentum. And I think that, um, sometimes especially in the it world, we get, um, we get kind of w w we like the big change, you know, let's move the cloud, you know, uh, and a lot of work gets done in the plan and, and, and people, and it's, division's not well articulated. And the why is that our belt we're all takeaway. And then everyone's kind of nervous. Like, what are they going to mean to me, I'm going to lose my job. And then two years go by and you still really haven't made a lot of progress. So they created all this, like, you know, uh, conflict in the organization and, and anxiety, uh, not really achieve much, you know?
So I think that's a, that's a great strategy. And this one things that we talk a lot about our customer, especially when it comes to AI ops, that AI ops is, is a strategy. Right? And, and one of the first things we say is you've got to develop a vision and that vision, it's a multi-year vision because the promise of AI ops can't even be delivered today because of the technologies. So there's limited. I mean, it's, it's early on. It's, it's really interesting. Um, and we're doing some very kind of contained things and, and with AI, really machine learning, but the vision is the years away, you know, um, and, but being able to make small incremental changes to get there, right. And, and giving people the ability to adapt, to write and understand that, and, and helping people understand that their path in that.
Right. So if you're, if you're an operations person kind of to your point, and you're sitting there all day long, just kind of cooking the keyboard, you know, you're probably going to be automated out of a job, right? If you want to enhance your skills and become a more skilled worker, there's probably a job waiting for you that may not even be defined today. Right. I just had a whole conversation with an analyst yesterday, and we were talking about what are the biggest things? And it is people complain that, Oh, you know, you know, this new initiative is, uh, we're going to lose her job. Nobody's really lost her job. And I T you know, but new jobs have been created, you know, like five years ago, you were a guy in a data center, and now you might be a cloud cost analyst, a cloud costs, analyst job didn't even exist two years ago.
Like nobody even knew what it was now. That's what you're doing. So your ability to adapt is, is really important. Um, how, how do you, so, so going on that, how do you, how do you help? I mean, what can you tell a, an it leader on how to, to create a better connection with their staff while they're trying to get some of these visionary things done to alleviate some of the stress. And we've talked a little bit about, um, the vision is important. Are there things that, you know, just daily interactions or communication that they could do to help, um, you know, kind of build that connection with their staff and, and put their, put their mind at ease.
I love that question. Um, and that's, you know, so, so important if we're gonna, if we're going to create any kind of change in our organization, if we're not connected to each other and understand what the other person's going through, then we're never gonna be able to, um, adapt and change and pivot and, um, and, and make these kinds of changes, or even just enjoy our daily work. Um, at the end of the day, we just want to enjoy what we're doing. And, um, and just, and, and the part of the word that makes the, I emphasize is joy. Um, enjoy, uh, is, is so important to just waking up and loving what you do every day. And I think that, um, we sometimes get on, on, we automate ourselves, we just get up and go to work and do our job and come home and, you know, get out proposals and get out the, you know, the things that it takes to just get it done.
But where's the joy in all of that. If you're not enjoying what you're doing, then it's, it's really a you're going to burn out. And, um, and there's, there's no reason that anyone should have to burn out if you're, if you're really truly loving what you do and who you do it with. And, and so to back to your question, I think it comes down to empathy. Um, I think empathy is the, is the key skill there. If, if an organization is missing empathy, I just don't see it, it working. Um, I think there's a lot of companies that you can point to that put empathy in place first, before anything else and said, how are we going to build empathy around a process so that we're always touching back with people to see how they're feeling or doing, um, and getting that kind of feedback.
And if, if you, if you can step into the other person's shoes and go how they're, they're doing them, you're being a great leader. Um, the minute you stop doing that, then, then you're losing touch and, and there's no connection there. So, um, and empathy for your employees, empathy for your customer, empathy for your boss, empathy for everybody. Um, it's, it's a, it's a skill that's lacking in, in, in so many different areas is, and it sounds like it should be easy, right? Like just ask the other person how they're doing, um, and, and actually listen to how they're doing. Um, but you know, we, we are moving. So, yeah,
I think the hardest thing to do is, is, is making the time, right? Because in the end, that's, that's probably our biggest enemy, right. It's time and making time to sit down and have that conversation with, with your staff, how are you doing? You know, and in teaching them how to do it, you know? Yeah.
Emulating it. And you know, the interesting about time is, um, have you ever been in flow where you're sitting at your desk or you're sitting somewhere and something just comes to you and you just be able to get it out really fast. And it just works so, so easily. And you're like, how the heck did I just do that? It's like, almost you're driving on the highway. You don't know how you're driving the last five minutes, you just forgot you're driving. Um, and, and, and that,
Are you, or are you going to work on something for an hour and four hours go by? And you're like, what happened? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there's the opposite where you're like, I cannot wait for this day to be done. It could not end sooner. Um, and, and typically that's how time Cummins too comes into play. So if you can create more empathy and you enjoy your job, more time will go faster and you get more done in time, becomes irrelevant because we can create things faster. We can do things faster. We can't work alone. Working alone does not make things faster. We have to work with a team. There was no business that survived that built itself without somebody else, or at least a team of people supporting it. And so if in order for us to create something great, we've got to create more when we have to create more empathy and we have to do it so that we are all enjoying what we're doing. And when we combine those different elements, time's irrelevant. It becomes so much easier. I'm not saying you're not going to have your bad days in once a day to be finished faster, but it will happen less and less.
Yeah. Good. So, um, so what, what do, um, what can somebody take away from this, right. They're driving down the road and listening to this podcast, like a super interesting, what can they do today? Like what can, what can they walk into the office this morning and say, I'm going to do this today. What can they do this week? What can they do this month? Like, what can they do? Do you think that could just make a difference and start building these, these human human connections, whether with their employees or their company or their customers are
Great. Great question. So, uh, I'll make it really simple. Walk over to grab, grab a group of people, walk around your office, grab some people, take them over to whiteboard, um, and map out all of your customer touch points. Whereas every, every point where your customer touches your business, your service that you offer, or your product that you offer and map that out and just simply on the board, um, you know, from the very first proposal or meeting or email, or however it is that they come into your business to the very last touch point that you remember them having and everything in between. Now take a step back and look at the whole thing, question it, cause do we have everything here? Um, it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to be close enough. And then look at it and ask the question, where could we make more, uh, um, human moments happen, more human touch points.
Where can we surprise and delight our customer where we're not doing it now? Um, that's, what's going to put you over the top over your competition because everybody's doing the same thing right now. It's the same process we walk in, we build a funnel, we create a model to serve the business. We have an accounting system. It's all, it's all the same. If you want to make something different for your customer surprise and delight them in moments when they least expect it and do it the way that you do that is you just walk up to a whiteboard, map it out, look at it and say, okay, where are three spots that we can do something extra that we can make them feel great, that we could make them feel appreciated, that we can show them empathy and see, and, and step into their shoes and say, okay, how are they feeling at this point?
What can we do to help them? Um, those are the things that keep them as raving fans and never want to leave you because they felt something so much deeper, uh, from something that you gave them that they hadn't seen anywhere else. And now they're going to human, go tell their friends about it. This is what creates referrals and referrals, as you know, are better than any kind of sale or any kind of marketing that you can do. So that's what I would do first is just walk to a whiteboard, grab some people and start working at your human touch points.
To the customer. What could they do for their staff?
Yeah, for the staff, I, I am a huge, a huge proponent proponent of, um, of, of, um, I'm also a trained, uh, executive coach and I spend half of my time coaching executives. And so you're, you're asking me like my, my, my love, this is my love language. So, um, so my, my, uh, my, uh, um, what I like to create is co-ownership, um, and how do you co own everything? I don't think that leaders should stand alone, um, and they should be able to ask for help when they need it. And when they get into a spot where they don't know what to do, that we can lean on each other. And so I, I, I do think that in order to build a company, we need to build a company of leaders. And, um, and in order to do that, we need to bring everybody along as a leader.
And, and, and in order to do that, we need to set the time aside to make sure that we are building them as leaders. So to do, to make sure that that happens. We want to create a situation where we can get together, and we can define our, our interactions and our create our, um, our co our coach leadership. Um, this company co-active, um, that actually trained with has this great model where everyone is a leader at some point in the room, either in the front of the room, in the back of the room, um, or within yourself. So front of the room leader behind the room leader, or, um, or a leader within, um, or a leader beside. So, um, so Sean, you and I, if we were, if I was sitting in the room with you right now, and I put my arm around your shoulder and you put yours around my shoulder and we stuck our arms out, and we just pivoted, we should be able to point in the same direction together, your left arm, out my rhyme, right arm out. And we see the same vision and we're looking to the same place. And, um, and that kind of interaction is what we want with all of our, with all of our employees. We want to be able to look out and see the same vision and know where we're all going together. I'm not alone, not, not me, the leader in you, the follower, it's us, the leadership, the leaders. Um, so how do we co-own that leadership is what I would focus on the most, um, and bringing everybody along
And how do you do and doing it in a way with, with empathy, right. And making sure that you, you hear people right. And you're spending time with them and trying to understand, like, what are, what are they concerned about, what are they, what do they think their challenges are? You know, and, and help them, uh, because in the end, that's, you know, that's what we're really here for, right. We're here to, to help people be successful. And if they're successful, uh, with themselves. And, and one of the things that I, I try to do too, or is, is it's, it's, it's harder nowadays, you know, in this, in this, uh, this world is HR world of how much can you ask about someone's situation? Um, but to me, it's so important to understand what's going on outside of work. Uh, and you have to do, you have to be careful nowadays about how you do stuff like that, because it has an impact, right.
And, you know, people talk about work-life balance and things like that. It's, to me, it's that work-life balance is really being empathetic to what people are dealing with in their outside world, because we all have issues, right. We all have challenges. And, and, um, and I, I started a foundation around Alzheimer's caregivers, um, because of the journey I've gone through with my, my father and my grandmother, um, and what I saw the caregivers doing, like my mother and others. Um, but what we realized is that the caregiving aspect is so huge in people's lives. And, you know, we talk about companies talking about, um, you know, mental health and physical health and things like that. But a lot of times these people are taking care of other people, right. And being flexible in that and understanding and say, okay, what, what, what do I need to, how can I help you be successful on that side?
So you're more successful on this side. That, to me is work-life balance, right? It's not necessarily counting hours that you work per week. It's, it's being, it's being understanding and flexible how we can work together to fulfill all aspects of your life. Because as, uh, and not just saying, well, you know, as long as you get here at nine and leave at five, you know, we're good. You know, I think that that's a, that's a recipe for frustration eventually. Right. So, but that's hard to do now. Right. It's getting harder, you know, to, you know, you can't ask certain questions now and things like that, but, um, we, as leaders need to figure it out though, you know, we really do. Yeah.
I mean, the number one tool we all have, um, that we, that we can do legally and, and without, um, without, uh, challenges, listen, um, there's nothing, there's nothing that will ever stop our, our, our, us from just, just planting ourselves and listening. Um, and, and that, that we, I think you said this before is time is not always on our side, but when we embrace time as a tool of, of actually like, if I do, if I am listening, maybe this is actually more important than, um, then, then the next hour of like us having a rush toward the next project or do something because it's going to make it, it's going to help us all be better as a team versus, um, you know, being frantic and not, not understanding the other person and where they're coming from. I think, you know, obviously there's a, there's an obvious choice there that can, that could work itself out.
Um, the other thing is, as you're talking, I want to make, make sure I, um, say here, just in these for, for anyone listening is that there's three core tenants of, um, and I talked about this in my book of being your most human self or your business being its most human self. And, and that's both internally and externally. Um, the three tenants, we talked about, one of them, which is empathy. Um, the second one is simplicity and the third one is imperfect. And, um, and these aren't being those things, they're embracing those things. Um, and when you think about a business that you love, it usually has one to one or two of those things, rarely do any of those businesses have all three. Um, you know, Apple is a simplistic business. It embraces simplicity. We know all their products, we know what they do.
It's very simplistic. Um, Amazon is empathetic towards its customer. Now you could argue that it's not in certain cases, but it takes back all its products, uh, in a return exchange. No problem, no questions asked that's, that's being empathetic towards the customer in one way. And then, uh, imperfect is like when a business screws up and they just immediately come out and say, we screwed up. Um, you know, we're embracing it, we're embracing the imperfection. Um, we can do these three things as people too, if we're embracing imperfection, we're embrace it. We embrace that. Our employees are imperfect. Um, if we, if we, if we think that they're going to be perfect all the time and we're not listening, we're not having empathy that it's never going to work out. So, um, so that's why we want, um, we want to embody what we want our business to have, which is simplicity, empathy, and imperfection. We want to bother you that ourselves, we want our business to do that same thing. So the brand stands on its own and has those things.
Wow. Yeah, no, I love that. I actually, I love that a lot. The, um, that's a great way to, uh, it's actually a great way to end this podcast. Um, I think that, um, you know, really kind of walking away and saying how we, how can we look at ourselves and, and understand that nothing is perfect, right? And, and I talk about that a lot. I it's interesting. I have this, I say this to a lot of my customers. I said our, our relationship is not defined by our success. Our relate, our relationship is defined on how we deal with issues because there will be issues and how we, as two people deal with those issues and communicate and listen, we'll define our relationship. And I've, I've braced that I've, I've, you know, over the past few years, gone through some things, and I've embraced that in relationships too, saying, look, you know, relationships are not perfect, you know, and, um, how you, how you communicate and how you work through issues, defines the relationship.
And, and I, you know, again, as a father of three daughters, my youngest is 18. My oldest is about to be 22. Um, you really have to embrace that and say, you know, you can't go into it being judgmental. You, you have to check a lot of things that you just want to say. Um, but you, in the end, you just have to listen and, and what I've, um, and th and trying to go in and with the aspect of listening and calmness and things like that, and embracing the fact that, you know, you have different opinions on things, and we just have to work through it, you know, and, and a lot of it comes through. And a lot of times it comes through not the answer, but the answer to the fourth, fifth, and six question that you, that you're asking, because that's where, that's where truth lies.
It doesn't lie in the first question, the first answer, right? And I've learned that 30 years of business and 22 years of kids, you know, the answer is not the first answer. It's you got to dig a little deeper, and that takes asking pointed questions that takes listening to the question and trying to go deeper on the next one and falling and get to really what the truth is. And when you figure out the truth, actually a lot of times things are easier to fix if you just understood the truth of it. So excellent. So, um, I, uh, I am, uh, reading your book now, human human. Uh, so I'm pretty excited about that. Uh, I'm also, um, reading a bunch of blog posts. I just read a couple about self deprecation, which I thought was really interesting work in our work in our listeners. Find more about you.
Yeah. Thank you. And Sean, thank you so much for, um, having me on here. I really enjoyed this, uh, this conversation and I can't wait to see more about, about, uh, what, what you guys, what I love, what you guys are doing and where you guys are going. And, um, especially with the, uh, emotional intelligence work that you're doing. I think there's so much there that we can learn from, and I'm looking forward to seeing what, what turns up there. Um, yeah, my re very easy to, um, figure out where to, where to go. It's at Brian creamer.com, Bryan with a Y and Kramer with a K and then, uh, on all social media for a forward slash or at Brian Kramer. Um, so, um, I'm the, the HH guy, so you'll probably get a reply back and, and, uh, in real life it'll really be me. And, um, it won't be some AI chat bot. Yeah. And then who knows, he may send me something, I'll send something and you'll send something. And before, you know, it, we'll actually be having this thing called the conversation and it'll be really cool. So thank you so much. I appreciate it.
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